Challaine (00:00)
And welcome everyone to today's episode of Let's Have a Chat. I've been chatting for like the past 20 minutes with Mindy Gorman-Pulzer. And I was just like, hey, shit, I'm hitting record now. Mindy is β a certified integr... Really? You say integrative. Thank you, health coach and certified functional nutrition and lifestyle practitioner. And what I absolutely love, I've got your guest application right here. And the question is, β
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (00:16)
That's creative.
Challaine (00:30)
topics you'd like to discuss. And you put recovery as it relates to our relationship with ourself. I absolutely love that. How did you get to that? Well, first off, thank you so much for being here. We've been chatting for so long. So I'm thanking you 20 minutes later for meeting with me. But how did you get to this mindset of recovery for your relationship with yourself?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (00:40)
Yes.
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to be here and talk to you. recently met, but I feel like I know you forever. And I'm so grateful and just thrilled to be here with you. I got to this place of recovery being β a reflection of our relationship to self by understanding that there is a huge difference between doing recovery and being recovered.
Challaine (01:01)
I was excited for this.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (01:28)
When we decide to stop drinking, using drugs, restricting food, using food to cope, we put steps into place so we know what to do. What's missing from that is the connection to ourselves. What's missing from that is the understanding of the concept and the context that
was driving those behaviors. So when we start to look at our behaviors, whether it be with food, alcohol, drugs, gambling, shopping, whatever it may be, it's usually because there is a disconnect from ourselves. There is a need, and I have to say, we need to honor what was needed because usually the issues
become really started as a solution. They're not the problem. They become the problem when there are consequences, but they start out as a solution. And in many cases, a brilliant solution because we needed to figure out how to navigate the world that we didn't feel safe in. So when we look at ourselves and we take that deep dive into what is it that I'm really hungry for? What is it that I am afraid to feel? β
Challaine (02:28)
Yes. Yes.
Absolutely.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (02:52)
What is it that I'm checking out from? It comes back to this deepest place within ourselves. And for me, I discovered that that deepest place within myself is my higher power. Because I can speak. β well, this is what. Yeah, this is it because I have had an abusive relationship with alcohol and a terribly abusive relationship with food in my body.
Challaine (02:56)
you
What does higher power mean for you? Because this can be a loaded question, right? Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (03:21)
to the point where I was two pounds away from being hospitalized and underweight. β you know, I went through so many programs and I was always asked to rely on something outside of myself for recovery, rely on whether it be a food plan or...
Challaine (03:27)
Overweight or underweight? Okay.
Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (03:49)
giving myself up to the god of my understanding. And it never sat right with me because I knew that it had to come from me. I had to find that place within myself that really understood the true meaning of joy, the true meaning of being present, the true meaning of taking a deep breath.
And that can happen when you are relying on something outside of yourself. So, yeah, go ahead.
Challaine (04:20)
Absolutely. People feel, sorry, I just want to tap into this for
a second. I think there's a lot of shame attached to whatever may be inside of us that maybe we're leading towards these substances to navigate away from our own personal self. We don't want to feel the fields.
Right? And in order to, like for me, in order to move forward and really, really put the bottle down for good, I had to have the ugly talk with myself and I had to feel the feels. And that's like stored energy that has been inside of me for years and years and years. And it is an ugly process to get sober and to change your relationship.
alcohol but once you can start feeling those feels and going through the motions you're releasing this stuff that is literally stuck inside of yourselves inside of your being β that's what it was like for me can you relate to that
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (05:40)
Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. And add to this the layer of anger, which calls on us to find acceptance and therefore compassion. What I experienced was that the acceptance leading to compassion, leading to forgiveness is what allowed me to let go of so much of what I needed to let go of the story.
the parts of my story that I needed to turn the page on.
Challaine (06:15)
Did you find, you mentioned anger, anger with yourself or did, were people around you saying that, Mindy, you're angry all the time. I got it. My husband was always like, you're a bitch. Like, why are you so angry all the time?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (06:27)
I kept it hidden. I kept it stuffed down. You know, I had a lot of resentment towards the way I was raised. I had a lot of resentment over the fact that I wasn't receiving what I needed from those who were obligated to give it to me. And when I was able to realize that it wasn't about me, it was about their limitations and their incapability.
and the messaging that they received that I was able to find compassion and therefore acceptance and forgiveness. And I find now that compassion drives everything in my life, everything I do. And as a result of that, I'm a really happy, content person. And I turned 70 years old on Saturday and yes,
Challaine (06:58)
Yeah, like this is multi-layered for sure.
70?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (07:26)
Yeah, and I am in.
Challaine (07:28)
That's
like mic drop moment. When we met, I thought it was, I was thinking about this as I was getting ready for this interview today and I was like, oh yeah, she's like 65, 69, holy geez. I think we need to take some tips and tools from your wisdom, your experience and your life because Mindy, I'm sure you get this all the time, but you look absolutely incredible. And not only,
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (07:41)
Yeah, May 3rd, I turned seven.
Thank you. Thank you.
Challaine (07:57)
Is it a physical, but just the energy that radiates from you? I see you online and β speaking and you just have like a joie de vivre, right? Like just this spark for life. And at 70 years old, β you're not sitting in a nursing home, like wasting away, right? Sure, sure.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (08:17)
β I think, but you know, think 70 is the new 50. Yeah, you know,
but what's happened for me and in fact, my new book, which will be published in September is just about metamorphosis. And of course it's, you know, the journey to food freedom because that's where all my work is going now, but it's food freedom and radical acceptance, accepting where we are now.
accepting what can't be changed. Understanding that the lessons we learn in midlife, the very important lessons that we learn in midlife, create the wisdom that we can feel so inherently.
Challaine (08:58)
Yes.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (09:03)
in our more advanced years. And that's how I want to live my life. That's the legacy I want to pass on to all of those that I'm blessed to work with. And of course, my children, because my children certainly suffered as I was going through my downslide. You know, for me, yeah, yeah, I know you do. You know, I, my worst years.
Challaine (09:22)
I do know. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (09:29)
Physically emotionally and spiritually where I was truly physically emotionally spiritually bankrupt Started when I was 49 my husband my daughter's father died when I was 49 years old and I Really didn't know how to cope I didn't know how to live and then I you know had the business of my life to handle which was quite tough
Challaine (09:57)
Is that
when the alcohol started was with his passing? Okay.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (09:59)
That's when the alcohol got bad. Alcohol
was a huge part of our life. Huge part. We would have a drink together every night. We would have a drink before we went out. We would have wine with dinner or cocktail with dinner. He would ask me if I wanted another one. There were many nights I fell asleep in the car on the way home. β And then when he was sick for 21 months and it was never a good prognosis.
Challaine (10:15)
drink when you get home.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (10:29)
and he had metastatic melanoma. And β he was bedridden most of the time and I was downstairs swigging wine from the bottle at two o'clock in the afternoon. And then after that, when he was gone, I'd be with my daughters and there were nights when we were out for dinner and I wouldn't go to the restroom because I didn't think I could walk there.
Challaine (10:55)
out.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (10:55)
β
there were, I had blackouts at the table. remember one night asking for the check and my daughter said, mom, we didn't get our food yet. I would come home, finish up the glass of wine that I started before. And there were nights, I woke up in a bathtub at five o'clock in the morning, but filled with cold water. fell asleep in the tub. So I'm telling you, I'm here to say.
Challaine (11:05)
Mm.
You've been through the wringer.
Holy jeez.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (11:25)
Doing
recovery and being recovered are two different things.
Challaine (11:32)
How would you define them? What is doing recovery versus being recovered?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (11:35)
All right,
doing recovery is telling yourself, I cannot have a drink. Doing recovery is calling your sponsor every day, not feeling it, showing up at meetings, but at the same time, you're always thinking about alcohol. You're missing alcohol. Being recovered, and I can say the same thing about my relationship with food, right?
that discipline, today I'm not eating, I wanna see how few calories I can consume by dinner time. I tell a story where I was preparing dinner for my family and I was making pasta and I looked at the box and I saw it, two ounces was the serving. Well, what did I do? I counted out two ounces of pasta, which were 30 pieces of penne and I decided I was gonna allow myself to have 15. So when I was sitting at the table with my children that night and my husband and they were teenagers,
Challaine (12:18)
answers.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (12:29)
God knows you've got to be present for your teenagers. I was counting pieces of penny that were going through my mouth. Do you think I remember one bit of conversation from that night? Right. And then, know, with food, it's following a food plan, doing what you're supposed to be doing, showing up, showing up, whether it be a sponsor or showing up to your therapist and not really feeling it, being recovered.
Challaine (12:40)
No.
doing the diet.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (12:58)
is feeling empowered that you are making a choice not to drink. I am making a choice to eat a proper meal today. I am making a choice and honoring the fact that I feel hungry and I stop when I've had enough.
That's the difference. It's being, it's being the change. That's true transformation. Yeah, yeah, that's true transformation. You know, in fact, one of my mantras, it's become a, I should probably trademark it, is true transformation is less about what we do to change and more about what we let go of so we can become the change we want to see.
Challaine (13:21)
Who is it? Wasn't it Gandhi be the change you want to see in the world? β
Yeah
Bye.
Change is about letting go.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (13:46)
Yeah. And we all have a different story. So we all have different things to let go of. But that's my difference.
Challaine (13:50)
Of course. Yeah.
I want to see, pick your brain on this. β Do you feel that you are recovered or in recovery? Because that's, that can go one or two ways depending on who you talk to and what program they're in or how they're choosing to be sober or move through recovery. β For me, I like to say I'm recovered.
because I don't do it, I don't think about it, I'm not tempted, I am not an alcoholic, that works for me, okay? So I am recovered from my addiction with β alcohol. I am no longer in recovery. So how does that play out for you? Recovered or in recovery?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (14:35)
Love that.
For me, recovery, the concept of recovery is very nuanced.
So it depends on the day. There are some days that I can be triggered and I need to remind myself why I made the choice to be where I am. β I've had a lot of triggering factors in my life and they're still present. So I still have to work on the acceptance piece and the compassion piece. β
Challaine (14:58)
Okay.
Okay.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (15:22)
It's much easier now than it was before and it really comes naturally to me now. But there are days that I still have to remind myself of what I need to do to be the person that I am now and the woman that I want to be and the example I want to set for my daughters and my step-sons and my eight magnificent grandchildren.
Challaine (15:48)
beautiful. β Can we talk about your food journey? And this is your new book. What is the title of your? Well, what's the title of your first book? Let's show it. Bring it up. Let's see. Let's see.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (15:59)
Okay, the first book is, that's right here.
This
book is The Freedom Promise, Seven Steps to Stop Fearing What Food Will Do to You and Start Embracing What It Can Do for You. And this book details my seven step framework, which is an acronym for freedom. Find your enough, rest and digest, eat when you're hungry, stop when you're not.
Challaine (16:11)
Ugh.
Okay.
Thank
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (16:32)
Eat mindfully, do something every day to make your body feel alive. Only eat whole foods as often as you can. And make sure you surround yourself with what truly nourishes. And those are the seven steps. okay. That's the acronym for freedom. So β each chapter, so actually this book, the R is just rest. In my later programs when I started,
Challaine (16:43)
Are those your seven steps? I was going to ask you for only two of them. Go buy the book and learn all the seven steps. cool. β
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (17:02)
after I got my certification of functional medicine nutrition, it was more about rest and digest because it goes into gut health and the gut brain connection and all of that. each chapter, each step starts with an anecdotal story of my own insanity with food. Insanity with food, yeah.
Challaine (17:10)
Yeah.
your own insanity. Okay, so doing the
same things over and over again leads to insanity. Okay? Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (17:26)
Right, right. And like the story I just told
you about counting the pieces of penne, you know, I have a recipe in here for something called who would a thunk of chili, which was when I first realized I was coming out of this funk, this cloud had lifted. And here I was making this unbelievable pot of chili with beans that I would never have made before. My goodness, all those carbs. So.
β That's why I named it Who Would Have Thunked Chili. So this book also, every chapter has action steps and journal questions and references and recommendations for further reading. So I knew I'm going able to thank you. Well, I pretty told you. Thank you. Now, the second book, I always knew I wanted to write a second book. And I wasn't sure what I was going to write about.
Challaine (17:58)
Yeah.
Well, I'm already sold. I am buying a copy today. So thank you for bringing that up. I'm glad I asked the question.
Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (18:23)
So I thought maybe I would just redo the second book and add the more of the science, the functional medicine nutrition piece. And as I started writing, I said, uh-uh. So this book is titled, Midlife Metamorphosis, The Journey to Food Freedom and Radical Acceptance. And
Yes, it chronicles my story, but I also have client stories in the book about women who have experienced unbelievable transformations, as well as my own transformation. β I do dive into the seven steps, but differently, β because while find your enough is the first step, it's really the ultimate goal of everything that we face in life.
Challaine (19:12)
Yeah, and that's
hard to do when you're in the funk of it all and you're reaching for the bottle and and or you're not eating enough or you're overeating and You're just trying to find yourself is like an impossible task who is Who am I? Right, like that's the question. Who am I and I talk about this like what I do versus who I am are two totally different things I am a mother I am a
I'm a coach, I'm this, I'm that, I'm a wife, I'm a friend versus like that's like what I do, right? I'm a podcast host, I'm an author, but who is Shalane, right? That's where we really need to dig and answer those questions. You're excited, you're excited, go.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (19:57)
Okay, so now, so now Shalane,
brilliantly, you are an unbelievable interviewer. We have gone back to the very first question you asked me about relationships themselves.
Challaine (20:08)
What was it?
Okay, that's right. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (20:13)
Because if we don't have our relationship to self is reflected in our relationship to everything else we do. How we view the world is a reflection of our relationship to ourselves. If we feel we're being judged, it's because we're judging. If we need more food, there's never enough. Can't be thin enough.
One drink isn't enough. What do they say? 10 is...
Challaine (20:45)
I say one drink is too many and one is never enough. That's it for me.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (20:47)
What? Right, exactly. Yeah,
I think the same from AA was. β
Something 10 is enough, is never enough, one is too many, something like that. Yeah. But you know, it's the same thing with a food journey, right? The difference is that we cannot live without food. And yeah, but what I want people to understand is that our very first experience with feeling nurtured, with being seen,
Challaine (21:02)
Yeah, yeah, I can relate.
True, very true, yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (21:25)
has to a big fit, right? We thrust out of the human body, whether it be through the birth canal or the stomach, into this bright cold room in most cases. We're wrapped in warmth and we're fed. Now we have no sense of autonomy, no ego, but the brain remembers, eat, feel safe.
Challaine (21:50)
That's what I took from our conversation and I shared it with my husband the first time we talked.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (21:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
So now, life gets in the way. We we use food. For some people, they turn away from it. For some, they turn to it. I have to share an interesting story with you, if you don't mind that just happened last week with a client. It was our first session. And we were talking about her, her food story. And she
Challaine (22:09)
Of course, of course.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (22:21)
is a very, had been a very poor eater, constantly making the wrong choices for her overweight body. Brilliant woman, seven year old woman, just retired, she was a school administrator. She's a hoot. And yet she's telling me that when she was 11 years old, she and her mom and her sister had to escape the stepfather. He was being extremely abusive.
So they ran away in the dark of night to relatives home in another state. And this auntie was feeding her fried chicken and pork sandwiches as she described.
Challaine (23:04)
The comfort food. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (23:06)
Yeah, and
but what I pointed out to her and it was a huge aha for her that those foods represented safety for her. So today, when she needs to feel safe, when she's feeling triggered, she turns to food. Why? Because her body and her brain remember, eat, feel safe. Yeah.
Challaine (23:29)
And this is all subconscious. It's not
like, I need to feel safe. I have to go for the fried chicken right now. This is like ingrained in the cells and in our subconscious at words.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (23:37)
It wasn't about
the chicken. It's about feeling safe. then these memories. Yeah, the memories of this beloved auntie. And this time in her life where for the first time in her life, she felt protected had to do with food. Food was love. And this was such an aha moment for her. So what we're working on now is helping her to realize she's safe where she is.
Challaine (23:42)
β that gives me goosebumps.
This is a,
called, you called them aha moments. I heard that years ago from Oprah. I call them brain wow moments. I am having a brain wow moment. β
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (24:13)
Yes.
Challaine (24:19)
that food is safety and I'm I'm pausing because I'm trying to think about like my own relationship with food. It's not perfect. I may not be addicted to alcohol. I can recognize that I have addictive, an addictive personality and it's gone in waves throughout my life. Addicted to the gym, addicted to chocolate, addicted to chips, addicted to alcohol, addicted to weed and I can
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (24:38)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (24:49)
drop these things, right? So I do recognize that I have this addictive thing, but β when it comes to food, over the years, chocolate is really like the one that stands out. And my addiction to chocolate was so bad that β one year for New Year's I made the resolution. I don't like New Year's resolutions now that I'm older, but β to quit chocolate for a whole year.
My addiction to chocolate, I've talked about this on the show before, was so bad that my organs were so full and couldn't detoxify this crap that I was putting in myself. I was getting blisters all on my hands. Little fluid-filled blisters, and I called them my sugar blisters because I had, like, I was, I don't know, have you ever seen the Reese's peanut butter cups that, β like, are the, I think they're a quarter pound or something?
β I was having like or half a pound or something every single night like it was it was bad so I had these sugar blisters and Like I popped them and I would have ten band-aids on at a time like it was gross quit the chocolate hands cleared up right away, right so β I Can't find it right now, but where did chocolate become like safety?
for me, like talking about this aha moment, okay. It's not about the fucking chocolate, right? So thank you for that. I got some work to do now. Please, yeah, please do.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (26:25)
I'm going to put my coaching hat on for a second. β
So when you're eating the chocolate or the chips or whenever it is that you're addicted to, cause I want you to reframe that. Okay. β what are you tasting it?
Challaine (26:36)
Right now it's chocolate. Yeah.
Where am I tasting it?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (26:43)
Were you tasting it? Were you eating it slowly? Were you, how, because how? So you were savoring it. Okay, good, good, Okay, because very often how we eat is indicative of that relationship. know, β binge is defined as eating an enormous amount of food in a short period of time. And most people, you know, then.
Challaine (26:47)
Very slowly. Very... I eat everything very, very slowly. Yeah. Yeah, I eat everything slow.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (27:10)
develop what they call a food hangover and they don't even remember tasting the food, they just remember being checked out.
So that's why sometimes I like to reframe the concept of addiction and look at it as feeding a need. We're feeding need, basically, we're feeding our anxiety. β
Challaine (27:32)
A different need,
Yeah, this is
like, yeah, brain wow moment, eye opening, and I'm gonna like, it's not popping up for me, but I have some work to do and figure out where this friggin chocolate thing is coming from, because I certainly don't need it. Subconsciously, I need it for whatever reason. Can we go back to the shift that you had?
two pounds away from being hospitalized and to where you are now.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (28:07)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so yeah, it was very interesting for me. The eating disorder was all about control. Now, you know, that's very cliche, but my life was such that my body was really the only thing I felt in control of. And it was about
Challaine (28:33)
So did you,
where were you lacking control? Sorry to interrupt, but where were you lacking control in other areas of your life that you're like, I need to manage this, I've got this because I don't have this.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (28:36)
Now.
I didn't.
I didn't know how to use
my voice. I had a wonderful life, but it was a life that I was told I was supposed to be living. β
Challaine (28:58)
in that moment or from when you were growing up. Okay.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (28:59)
Yeah, the powers that be in that moment, know,
particularly, you know, with my parents β had a very strong part in my life. β A strong role in my life in terms of finances and family business and all of that. And but at the same time, it was very important that I present myself a certain way to the world. I was taught that image was very, very important.
So this is what I was taking control of, my physical image, right? Right, right. So this is what I was controlling. I didn't have a voice and I was afraid to use my voice. I was always afraid of an uncomfortable conversation. I was so deathly afraid of conflict and it took its toll. So when I realized that I was really, I really had a problem with my... β
Challaine (29:29)
That the physical image. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (29:55)
when it was truly an eating disorder, I went to a family doctor who was a friend and a good soul and poured my heart out and he started me on this path of doing recovery.
So I would see him weekly for weigh-ins and vital checks. I was seeing a therapist that he referred me to two and three times a week. And I was seeing a dietician that had me on a meal plan that was totally unsustainable. And I have to add that she told me to have two glasses of wine with dinner so that I could be relaxed enough to ingest all this food. It was not gonna work. No one asked me what I was hungry for.
Challaine (30:32)
Yes.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (30:42)
No one asked me what was going on. The doctor was telling me what I needed to weigh. The therapist was putting blame on everyone around me in my life, which was so stupid because that's why I felt like I needed to be in control. Did nothing to empower me. She actually asked me one day, well, why can't you just eat a sandwich? And then the...
Challaine (30:58)
Yeah.
was your
answer to that? Do you remember?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (31:11)
If I knew
the answer to that, I wouldn't be here, I told her. And then the dietician was telling me what I was supposed to eat. No one was talking to me about what I talked to you early about, the context within which I needed to develop these behaviors. Nobody was honoring the fact that I needed to rely on these behaviors.
Challaine (31:14)
Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (31:39)
So, you know, I was going for my weekly weigh-ins and Stephen, doctor, said to me one day, listen, two more pounds I'm putting in the hospital. Now this was in the 90s. There were no spa-like residential treatment centers. If I was going to the hospital, I was going to a psych ward. And all I could picture was being in a bed with an IV in my arm. Talk about lack of control.
Challaine (31:51)
Right.
I'm I'm I'm try.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (32:07)
totally disempowering. And I made it my business to embark on this journey of doing recovery.
I then, well, no, was doing it their way. So then I got better, things were okay, still doing recovery, life was wonderful, things were getting better around me, and my husband got his diagnosis of metastatic melanoma. So at that point I was 47.
Challaine (32:19)
doing recovery your way because you were doing recovery. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (32:42)
Um, so I took that deep dive into meaning to self-soothe again, not using my voice. Um, after it passed in 2004, I was on a plane on my way home from Florida and I read an article in, I don't know if you remember more magazine. was for women over 40. Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. So, um,
Challaine (33:03)
No, no, I was not over 40 in the 90s.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (33:08)
I read this article about a woman who was in fashion and she changed her life by becoming an integrative health coach. And she went to the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I came home, I called them, I enrolled. I became a board certified health coach, which led me to meet Mark David, who runs the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. When I finished that certification,
it dawns on me that it's important to understand who we are as eaters, why we eat, how we eat, when we eat. And when we look at all those issues, what we eat becomes easy because we're learning to honor our bodies and listen to the wisdom of our bodies. People that struggle with addiction, addictive behaviors are totally disconnected from the wisdom of their bodies. They're not listening to the messages that are being sent.
for whatever reason, again, it's totally nuanced. After that certification, I met Andriy Nakayama, runs, at the time it was the Functional Nutrition Alliance. And I went through that program, I still go through the program, and then I took her advanced training and became a certified functional nutrition and lifestyle practitioner. So all that training,
allowed me to see that so much of what I was experiencing was not only psychological but physiological, that there's a huge biological component to addictive behaviors and I was able to lose so much of the shame and really become empowered. And then of course I wanted to pay it forward so I created the Freedom Promise.
Challaine (34:53)
You know what I heard at the beginning of this story of you finding there was this article by this woman and I relate it to my own recovery sobriety is connection and community and that shows up in different ways and I feel like there was a shift in your life for β
a new connect you were connected to this woman through her article. And then you started finding your people, your new community, which has led you through this, β this recovery for food. And, and that's why I say it all the time, sober people need sober people. You can't do it yourself. So
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (35:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Challaine (35:49)
community and connection like you start all you did was read an article and that was like the took in a trajectory you didn't know what was going to happen that day. So that article from what I'm hearing literally changed your life.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (36:07)
And it's also about taking action. You you and I spoke before we started to record, you know, about the network that we're both in and how supported we feel and how we're being motivated to take action. No one is forcing us. It's coming from me, right? It's that relationship to self. It's, it's, it's feeling seen. It's feeling validated. It's feeling like something, like we're a part of something great. Yeah.
Challaine (36:09)
Absolutely.
Ew. Yeah.
The community and the connection.
Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (36:36)
Yeah.
And it's also picking the right community because I've picked communities that weren't right. But it's having the wherewithal to honor yourself enough to say, you know, I can have that uncomfortable conversation or some uncomfortable conversations are never worth having. Let it go.
Challaine (36:40)
course.
β say that again.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (37:01)
Some uncomfortable conversations are never worth having. Okay, I know we're not 12-steppers, but the ninth step is all about making amends. But the eighth step that prepares you for making amends, and I can't quote verbatim, but something to the effect that if you feel that the person you owe amends to is not gonna get it,
Challaine (37:06)
So true.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (37:30)
Don't bother.
Challaine (37:32)
Okay.
This leads me to Mel Robbins and her book has just come out a few months ago, Let Them, The Let Them Theory, right? And to not, like just let people be who they are going to be. You're not going to change anyone. You're not going to convince anyone of anything, right? We need to just let them so.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (37:38)
No.
Challaine (37:59)
If you feel that to have that conversation with someone is going to serve no purpose, it's not going to make any things better, we want to make things better, then don't have the conversation and just let them be them and let me be me. And I can thrive without that.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (38:21)
But it's very difficult to do that successfully without the exception and compassion piece. Because if I didn't have compassion for the people who have hurt me in my life, I would find it very difficult to be accepting and let things go. Because I would have that anger festering in me, that disappointment festering in me. When I see them for what they aren't, I can actually pity them.
Challaine (38:23)
course
huh.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (38:51)
feel sorry for what they're incapable of experiencing and what they're incapable of giving me, therefore incapable of receiving from me, I can let it go.
Challaine (39:03)
And forgiving someone is not saying that what they have done is okay at all.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (39:10)
No, no, it's
not letting me become codependent. It's not, it's their dysfunction is not affecting my life. β Forgiving really has a lot to do with how we react. I believe.
Challaine (39:31)
I see that. Forgiving has to do with how we react. I see that. Let them, it's so true, like two words, let them.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (39:36)
Yeah, right. you know, bless them.
You know, one of my favorite books is The Four Agreements. I love it. You know, the introduction talks about generational trauma and what we need to let go of. But The Four Agreements, right? Use your words impeccably and especially the words you use to yourself. Don't make assumptions. What somebody else does to hurt you is not about you.
Challaine (39:45)
Tell me. read that years ago. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (40:13)
It's about their own faults and misgivings and dysfunction. Don't take things personally again. And yeah, very. And then of course the last one, which I love and I think the wisdom that has come with my advanced age is this knowledge. Always do the best that you can.
Challaine (40:17)
sure.
That can be hard to do. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (40:36)
I look back on all the mistakes I've made and the bad judgments I've made and poor decisions I've made and bad behavior. But you know what, Charlene? It truly, truly, truly was the best that I could do at the time. I remember making some of those decisions and rationalizing my way through, whether it be not showing up for a friend or something I might've said to my daughters.
Challaine (40:49)
Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (41:04)
whatever it was, decisions I made about my own life, it truly was the best I could do at the time. And that has allowed me to give up the guilt, to give up the shame, to give up the regret. And I can find something. Yeah.
Challaine (41:19)
That's so important to give
up the regret we hang on to the shame and the regret. We can't do anything about the past. And we continue. I'm saying we as not myself included anymore because I don't live in the past. I can't live in the past. It serves me no purpose. I will revisit it to share a story, wisdom, a teaching β environment.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (41:33)
Collectively, yeah.
Challaine (41:49)
to sit there and feel shameful and angry. It's impossible to move forward when you hold that β so close.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (42:01)
Yeah. And some people though, Shalene, I'm sure you see that as a coach, are so stuck in their story, there's a reward in their being stuck because the issue started out as a solution, right? And then it becomes, who will I be? For the person who's restricting food, who will I be when I restore my weight?
Challaine (42:18)
Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (42:29)
For the woman who is in a larger body, who wants to be in a smaller body, she's in that larger body for a reason. Most of the time it's not because she loves food. Who will she be when she gives up that layer of protection that she built around herself? She'll be vulnerable. Who will I be when I stop drinking and I have to feel things and I have to show up?
Challaine (42:56)
Let's find out.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (42:57)
That's a big problem for a lot of people. So they choose to stay stuck. It's really, don't, when I'm coaching somebody, I don't look at it as resistance. I reframe it with them and what is this doing for you? Where is the reward in your behavior? Let's look at that. And then how is it serving you?
And that's where the work has to be. Not, you have to do this and why are you resisting? Uh-uh, that's not honoring somebody. That's not empowering a client. It's let's look at what this is doing for you. And is it really? And why do you need it? And honor the fact that it's needed. That's how we help people make transformation.
Challaine (43:38)
Yeah.
You just mentioned reframe and what if we could reframe or reframe the way we speak and instead of saying this is my story and being so attached to this is my story. What if we can say this was a chapter in my story?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (43:59)
Absolutely.
Challaine (44:01)
You what I mean? And then
because all books are more than one chapter, right? And I love that. love that. Okay. Can you debunk some food myths that really piss you off? Like you hear this and you're like, β like it just gets to you.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (44:22)
Yeah, co-op's are the enemy.
Challaine (44:25)
Okay, that's a big one.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (44:26)
Yeah, our brains need carbohydrate. Our brains are made up of glucose and fat. We deprive our body of smart carbohydrates. not talking about ultra processed food. That's a whole different ball game. I'm talking about potatoes and rice and grains and oatmeal and good quality pastas.
Challaine (44:41)
That's it. You're coming back for an episode on that.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (44:53)
Our bodies need those foods. And the other thing that people don't realize is all of those foods contain huge amounts of vitamin B and fiber. And number one, fiber we need for satiety. We need fiber for proper digestion. But B vitamins we need to metabolize sugars and fats. So that's really very important. Another pet peeve I have is people that are using fat-free dressings on their salads.
That's a biggie for me because.
Challaine (45:23)
Yeah, read the ingredients.
What makes it fat free? And like we need fat, but what are you exchanging or putting in your body to make that fat free?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (45:27)
Right, no.
But not only that, a salad in itself is filled with fat-soluble vitamins, right? Vitamins A, E, D, and K. That's what you find in your vegetables and your dark leafy greens. You need fat to digest and absorb these vitamins. So if you are putting a fat-free dressing on your salad, the salad's really becoming a nutritional wasteland.
Challaine (45:42)
I dig, yeah.
So then you're not extracting those vitamins from your salad and you're just shitting it out. And those vitamins are not being distributed throughout your body because you need the fat to essentially carry them throughout your body. Is that what you're saying?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (46:04)
Yeah, that's right.
All right.
And then your liver has to detoxify from all the chemicals in this fat-free dressing.
Yeah, that those are the like the things the other thing that really comes to mind is people that are still so stuck in counting calories. It's the quality of calories that matter. If you would have told me 15 years ago that I would be eating as much food as I do in a day, I would have asked you what you were smoking.
Challaine (46:38)
Yes.
That's my next question because at 69 years old I pray to the heavens that I get to be similarly looking, feeling, energized as you. Like swear to goodness I thought you were in your 40s. You look like you're in your 40s. So can you give us a sample day in the life of Mindy β and is it varied like throughout the week or are you like regimented? Like is it kind of the same thing?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (47:05)
No.
Challaine (47:18)
every day.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (47:19)
No, I ask myself before every meal, what do you feel like eating? So some mornings I might have a bowl of oatmeal, quick, you not instant. I'll cook it in a pot and believe it or not, I add an egg white to it. I whisk in an egg white to give it more protein. I might add some frozen berries that I...
cook in the oatmeal and then sometimes I'll add a tablespoon of nut butter. So I have my protein, fat and fiber. I have protein, fat and fiber. That's one rule that I do follow because that's great for blood sugar stability during the day. From the oats and the fruit, the berries. Or some days I might have a Greek yogurt with berries and nuts.
Challaine (47:48)
Yeah.
And the fiber comes from the carbs. The carbs. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (48:13)
And then some days I might not be hungry and I have to eat in the morning because I take medication. So β I might have a piece of gluten-free bread with peanut butter and I'll slice a banana or I'll slice an apple if I'm not very hungry.
Challaine (48:27)
Can we go back to the dairy for one second, since you're talking about it?
The Greek yogurt. So do we want β skim fat free, full fat, homogenized, full fat, every time with dairy?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (48:38)
Full fat.
I eat nothing that is, actually the only thing I do eat that is reduced fat is, Fage makes a lactose free yogurt and that's only available 2%. But that's what it is and I use sugar free oat milk in my coffee. I use β Stevia as a sweetener. I do try to avoid sugar. Lunch for me could be,
Challaine (48:57)
Okay.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (49:14)
homemade turkey breast and some gluten-free bread or sometimes a salad. You know, I'm home a lot because I'm working from home and honestly, I don't love the idea of making a salad for myself. So if it's leftover, I might have it. Always a protein source. β Some days I have every meal. Every meal, yeah. Sometimes I'll have egg salad for lunch.
Challaine (49:24)
Yeah.
So are you protein, fats, and carbs every time you eat? Okay.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (49:43)
tuna salad for lunch, always with some bread or crackers. I find myself, if I don't have that carbohydrate, I'm hungry again very quickly. I could have an omelet, I love omelets. And dinner is usually some sort of protein, lots of vegetables, often potato. And that's my day, I'm not a snacker. After lunch, I usually have one or two of those really big delicious dates.
Challaine (50:10)
Okay, okay, a little bit of sweetness there. Yeah, it is. Can we go to your dinner plate for a second? Because over the years we've heard like a third or like a quarter, a quarter and then a half. So like quarter protein, quarter fat and then like half a veg or whatever. What, but then that's doing recovery I feel like, right? Because we're measuring and we're like, oh well, you know what I mean?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (50:12)
That's lot β of food.
Well, okay.
But going, I'm not into measuring. I'm into letting your body tell you how much you need because.
I'll give you an example. know someone that was once saw a nutritionist and was put on a food plan and they had to have six ounces of protein at dinner. And I'm thinking, and like I had to weigh the food and I'm thinking to myself, but that is ask me to rely on something outside of your body because what if you were full after four ounces? And what if on this particular day you needed eight ounces?
Challaine (50:57)
Yep.
the scale.
Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (51:12)
So I'm all about listening to the wisdom of your body and stopping when you've had enough and serving yourself enough so that you can leave something over on your plate β when you get to that point of being comfortably full. So do not, I do not because it fills me up.
Challaine (51:27)
Do we have water before we eat? Is that a thing? Okay.
and then you're not getting the nutrients.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (51:36)
Right. And then I don't also, I do not advocate drinking water with a meal because what it does is it dilutes the digestive enzymes that you need to break down your food.
Challaine (51:47)
I never drink anything when I'm eating. So I got it there. I got it there. Yeah. Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (51:49)
Yeah. So yeah, drink through the day. I've been sipping water all day.
My dinner could be a piece of salmon, a piece of β grilled chicken breast. The other night I had a very high protein veggie patty. β I happen to love vegetables. So I always have probably way too many vegetables on my plate. β
Challaine (52:15)
You know what I just
had the other day? So I get this, β it's called the odd bunch and I get it bi-weekly, a large box of mixed fruit and veg and then another small box of fruit, grab and go for the kids, right? And they had a, I'm going to say it wrong because the word that's standing out in my mind is kombucha, but it's not a kombucha squash. It's a kabacha.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (52:39)
Okay. β yeah.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Challaine (52:43)
Okay, so I had that for the first time yesterday, or a couple days ago, and you cut it and kind of looks like little half moons and olive oil, salt, pepper in the oven. And I put it on my family's plates for supper. And my husband was like, this is really good. And I was like, yes. And like for your husband or your kids to like eat up the squash, β that's important.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (53:07)
Yeah.
Challaine (53:11)
Right? So introduce these new foods and like variety. There's so many β options out there. Get a damn food box, see what shows up and try it out. Right? You might be pleasantly surprised. β
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (53:27)
Yeah, but
I want to say one important thing, though. I want people to realize that if they eat something that does not agree with them, dairy is a perfect example. There are plenty of people that can't digest dairy. And so you're choosing not to eat it because you don't like the way it makes you feel. That's not restrictive. That's making an empowered choice.
Challaine (53:51)
Yes.
So like farty poopy gassy or like, yeah, or lethargic.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (53:55)
Yeah, whatever it is, you know,
yeah, you're okay. It's okay not to like something. You know, that's why I have, you know, talking about eating disorders. Also, I have a huge problem with the conventional treatment model of all foods fit. Because when you think about it,
After years of, number one, the stress of the eating disorder itself, the restriction, the purging, the binging, your gut's pretty messed up.
98 % of people who present with eating disorders also present with some kind of digestive distress. 98%. And very often, those symptoms remain long after the person recovers and restores weight or loses weight and behaviors become normalized. So to expect somebody in recovery to eat everything,
is so unfair, it's dehumanizing, it's demoralizing, and I used this expression before, it's doing nothing but feeding anxiety. And when you are being treated as such and you have this so-called meal support, if you have trouble with something, you're gonna have a session with a therapist before you're gonna see a GI doc. And that's one of my biggest pet peeves, you asked me before about myths.
Challaine (55:21)
Is it?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (55:22)
All foods do not fit. You do not have
to eat everything in moderation.
Challaine (55:29)
I love that tidbit of advice. Like who told us this? You know what I mean? Yeah.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (55:32)
You know,
diet industry, used to be $60 billion, $163.7 billion diet industry. And they are in to make you fail. So you keep coming back. 95 % of people that lose weight gain it back after a year.
Challaine (55:50)
annually.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (55:58)
Everybody who's on these drugs now, these injectable drugs that are wonderful for many, but they have to stand them the rest of their lives. Otherwise they gain their weight back.
Challaine (56:10)
You know, I saw a podcast or something on Instagram a few weeks ago or last week, and it was, I don't know the validity of this, but just this is what I saw, that the food companies are now manufacturing the food to be a big name drug, like starts with the big O, resistant.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (56:30)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (56:36)
Yeah!
Hey, like they're manufacturing our food to be the big name old drug resistant.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (56:47)
I believe it. Yesterday, my husband and I were in the supermarket yesterday and we passed a big display of Twizzlers and I said to him, what's gonna happen to Twizzlers now that they're banning red dye?
Challaine (56:50)
That's scary.
Has that passed or is it like in motion?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (57:05)
Well, the
FDA did say, but for some crazy reason, it doesn't start until 2026. I don't know why.
Challaine (57:14)
money, money, somehow it's attached to profits or something. I don't know. Okay, do you have, I'd like to end the episode, sorry, before we end the episode, were you going to say something? Okay, so I'd like to end the episodes with a quote or something that stands out in your mind that you've just, like, you've carried with you throughout the years. For me, every journey begins with a single step. Does anything...
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (57:18)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. β
no, no, no, no, it's okay.
Challaine (57:44)
resonate for you and if not that's
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (57:46)
Yeah, I have to repeat what I said before. Transformation is less about what we do to change and more about what we let go of so we can become the change. Difference between doing and being. Doing recovery, being recovered. Doing healing, being healed.
Challaine (58:08)
I love it. I absolutely love it. β Thank you, Mindy, for your your wisdom turning your pain into your passion and your energy and your knowledge and you're just like I said earlier, your joie de vivre and you got like another 70 years ahead of you. I swear. And like this book and I'm just I'm so excited to β actually be a part of your journey. Like I'm just kind of on the sidelines going along with you. So thank you for
inviting me in and letting me β take these steps with you.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (58:43)
But you know, it works two ways. We recently met, we made this connection and we are going to be together through the journey, wherever it takes us both. And I'm just so honored, really truly honored to be on this journey with you. I really am. yeah, I mean it, Kathleen. Thank you so much. This was a great conversation.
Challaine (58:51)
We're in this girl.
Thank I just got goosebumps. I just got goosebumps.
Absolutely. And I want to tap on this for one sec. I've mentioned this on the show before about when you're talking with someone and you get goosebumps from when they're speaking, it means your souls are connecting. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I love you, Mindy. And thank you for tuning in to this episode. Like, share, do whatever you need to do. Get this episode out.
In the show notes, we're going to have all of Mindy's information. And Mindy, what are your two books again, please? And when is the release date for the second one?
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (59:37)
Alright, so the first book is The Freedom Promise. Seven steps to stop fearing what food will do to you and start embracing what it can do for you. And the second book will be Midlife Metamorphosis, The Journey to Food Freedom and Radical Acceptance. And we're shooting for September publishing date.
Challaine (59:59)
Yes, I wish you all the best of luck. You don't even need it. You got this in the bag. Thank you for tuning in and as always have the best day ever. Until next time.
Mindy Gorman-Plutzer (1:00:03)
β thanks.
Bye.