Challaine (00:01)
Welcome everyone to today's episode of let's have a chat. I've been feeling terrible the past couple months so β Katie has kind of been on the back burner, but she's on the front burner today Katie. Thank you so much for bearing with me and β Being accommodating to me growing a human essentially, but β we're not talking about that today We are talking about our relationship with ourselves and our ex-partner and navigating life
Katie J (00:10)
Okay.
Challaine (00:30)
post divorce. Now I've never been divorced. I probably
am never going to get married. Hopefully my husband doesn't hear this episode. But I think like the rules or the tactics or the tools that you have would apply to those who are in long-term relationships. Like I've had a seven year, a five year, I'm now in an eight year relationship. So β Katie, thank you so much for being on the show today. Welcome.
Katie J (00:55)
You are so welcome. I'm super excited, you know, sitting over here in the corner cheering you on as a β
Challaine (01:02)
β
Katie J (01:03)
fellow mother I did not realize. I was in my late 30s when I had my daughter and I didn't know any different. My body didn't know any different either so it just went with it. You know I can't imagine you know having multiple children over a span of time where your body's like wait I should be doing this and you're telling me I need to be doing this? Yeah.
Challaine (01:13)
Yeah.
We're just talking to them.
Yeah,
so it's going to be three when this one is born in January knock on wood everything goes okay. I'm going to have three under four. So yeah, my plate is full. However, enough about me. Katie, can you share your β journey and if you are open to it why divorce happened, how long you were thinking about it and how you navigated this with your now.
Katie J (01:38)
Yes!
Thanks.
β
Challaine (01:59)
ex-partner, you have a child with him, and what were you thinking during divorce about what your life would look like post-divorce? And how is it different or how is it the same?
Katie J (02:12)
That's a very interesting question because I don't think when you are in the middle of getting divorced or a breakup of a long-term relationship or anything like that, I don't
think you're necessarily thinking about what will my life look like now. For me, the emotions were so raw. I was like sometimes barely getting through the minutes, the hours of a day.
Challaine (02:41)
Is this while you were still with him?
Katie J (02:44)
No, it was after. was
after. So four years ago... β you guys, I think when we're recording this, we just came upon like right after my daughter's fourth birthday is when we sold the house and moved into separate places. Me being a woman, I'm like, okay, this is just temporary.
We're gonna, you know, be alright. We'll take some time apart and it'll be okay. We'll come back together. I don't know how long I lived in the world of denial. Probably until β he kind of made it known that he had moved on.
Challaine (03:22)
I'm not kidding.
Hmm. So you were thinking that you were going to get back together even though you guys were living separately.
Katie J (03:39)
There was several times, yeah. I was like, this is just temporary. You know, you're holding out hope that, you know what, we're gonna do the work we need to do and we're gonna come back together. And then I wish I could say there was one defining moment that was like, no, this is it. But I think part of that was, you know, we go through the holidays that first year and that was hard.
Challaine (03:40)
Okay!
Katie J (04:08)
And there is so, for me, and I know there are a lot of people out there that can relate, the shame, the guilt, the am I a failure that comes with that is crazy. My family, they know this now, but they didn't know that for a long time. β My family lives three hours from where I live. And...
I'm going to take you back just a little bit before the divorce happened because in 2017 I lost my grandmother in May. My daughter was born in July. Then we lost his grandmother in October of that year. Fast forward to 2018. Man, that year I lost my
Challaine (04:38)
Please do.
Katie J (05:04)
no April of that year I lost my father. And then we all know what happened in 2020 and the madness and the craziness of that. My sister was diagnosed with brain cancer and in 2020, May of 2020, we lost her too. She was the mother to five children.
Challaine (05:13)
β I can't even believe that still happened. Yeah.
Katie J (05:32)
And I'm like, okay, for some reason somebody thinks I can handle all of this. And then two months later, not even two months, yeah, two months later, we're selling our house. And I'm like, so that grieving process for me.
Challaine (05:55)
We didn't
have time to grieve. How? Where?
Katie J (05:58)
β
a continual grief cycle because not only was I losing people physically, then I lost my marriage.
And let me tell you, my ex-husband though loved my sister and he helped me write her eulogy.
So there can still be a mutual respect. Now has it always been rosy and peachy that way? If I said yes, I'd be lying, right? You know, I remember the day I... My daughter got dropped off really early, like at six o'clock one morning. I was taking her to daycare and then going to work.
Challaine (06:37)
Nope. I get it, I get it.
Katie J (07:00)
kids gotta love them no filter right she goes mommy guess who I met at the park this weekend and blah blah blah and I was like
Huh? That was the weekend that she had met the girlfriend.
Challaine (07:17)
β no kidding.
Katie J (07:19)
I, but I
knew we'd already kind of had a conversation about things going into it. And.
I am not an angry person, for the most part. I just remember feeling enraged like, how can this really be happening?
Challaine (07:40)
Did you still have hope at that time that you guys were going to get back together down the road?
Katie J (07:47)
No, that's when I was, I had kind of, I was realizing, okay, you know, this is not going to be. β and I had also in that timeframe thought it was a great idea for me to start a coaching business.
Challaine (07:50)
Good stuff.
Katie J (08:05)
I... β
Looking back, I'm like, what in the world was I doing? Because I was trying to barely hold it together myself. One of the most amazing things, and I know this is coming up, come up on your previous podcast with different guests as well, how amazing it is to have a support group or network around you, right? Because
Challaine (08:31)
Have to.
Katie J (08:37)
I'm starting this business and my goal is to leave. I have a corporate job that I've been at for 18 years. I'm ready to go. It's just like you feel that tug in your heart. It's like I'm meant for something more than that.
It was just, I found myself and I believe there is some divine intervention here because I was in a coaching group for women entrepreneurs. Had nothing to do with divorce or people that I even knew in person. And
Looking back, these β women have been so amazing. We still keep in touch to this day and they were so supportive just because they allowed me to be me. And you know what? When it was like, okay, you've been in that pity party a little too long. Come on. It's, you know, you know, and that's when I've realized too. I'm like, okay, I have two choices here. I can stay in this pit.
Challaine (09:42)
Come on, get out, get out.
Katie J (09:55)
where I can choose to rise up and move forward and truly help other women. Because if I'm feeling like this, I'm not the only one. But sometimes when you're in the middle of that, and I'm sure you understand that, right? When you're in the middle of something, sometimes you do feel like you're on an island.
Challaine (10:13)
completely isolating.
Katie J (10:16)
And none of us really are. And that's why I have a group. That's why I surround myself with amazing people because that is what is going to help you move forward through any kind of big change or transition in life. Right? So those women, it's yeah, that's
amazing. β But the other thing when I made that decision that okay I have to rise up and do something about it was
I was, my daughter was getting picked up and I was at home by myself.
What do you do with all this time?
And I laugh at myself sometimes because now I go back and look and people, people are like, you are crazy. I'm like, I know, but it's okay. Because right now I work a full-time job. I'm building two different businesses. One I'm gonna transition out of and go full-time into the coaching and speaking, but you have to...
figure out where your heart is. And sometimes that is not as easy as you might think, right?
Challaine (11:43)
especially when you have been in a marriage and living with someone else and there's a can be that codependency there and the intuition that we all have gets silenced and we don't know how to get into that, right? You said something, keyword and choices, you had two choices. We often think we don't have choices.
Katie J (11:54)
Mm-hmm.
person.
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (12:12)
There's always a choice. There's always an option. And there's always another decision that we can make that can change the trajectory of our lives. So how did you get out of that? I'm going to assume there was some fear by...
Katie J (12:20)
Yes. Yeah.
There is there
you name the emotion I feel like I had it You know, there's this fear there's this excitement because I would find myself and this is funny because I truly believe in therapy and I was telling my Therapist just this morning about how when you reflect back where you've come from and where you are now how Different that is and when you're in the middle of like
Challaine (12:32)
Yeah.
Katie J (12:56)
transition crisis moment, it feels like all consuming and it's never going to end, right?
Challaine (13:02)
like a 14 year old girl in high school or junior high. They're like, the friend group is all consumed. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie J (13:09)
β huh. And I'm
like, mine's only eight. I got to look for a half. It's already. β But as you do that, you have to start trusting yourself. Because I am the beginning.
Challaine (13:15)
Good luck.
How do you
trust yourself when you've been, when that intuition has been suppressed for so long, the codependency, the relationship, the teamwork, the partnership, and now you're by yourself? Like, you don't have ideas, or you have ideas, can't bounce them off your person anymore. That person's not your person.
Katie J (13:44)
Yeah. β it's very interesting that you say that because in the beginning and I found myself doing this and he just let me do this. Like it wasn't, we did not have such a bad relationship. I was still running things by him and saying, well, what do you think about this? And then I realized I'm like, hmm, okay, this is not, when she's with me, it's our time and what we do.
and trying to create that separation and to start trusting yourself.
I started with, okay, this is a little embarrassing to say, but I don't even care anymore. Something happened to me when I turned 40 and it's like, β this is what a boundary is and this is what... I was 40 years old before I felt like, because this was part of what happened in my marriages. I didn't have boundaries like with my own family. I don't think I even really had any with myself.
Challaine (14:27)
Later, I'm- Later, I'm-
Katie J (14:54)
Because until you start teaching others and yourself included how you want to be treated it's like a free for all.
Challaine (15:04)
Thanks.
Totally. I was 39. I was like, fuck boundaries. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I can do this. Yeah.
Katie J (15:10)
What the? So the light bulb moment,
will never forget things like you just let your parents show up. I never thought anything of it. But when you have a family and things are different, it's like, β you know, your focus definitely changes. β Looking back, it's always very interesting because it's like, well, I could have done this differently. I could have done that.
But you can't do that. You have to move forward. I have this little person that looks at me and is like, mom, you can do this. The other day she tells me, mom, I see your recordings of your speaking, but how come you never practice them with me? yeah, she's eight. So, you know, it's not because I'm embarrassed or anything like that. It's just like,
Challaine (16:12)
Great, great.
Katie J (16:18)
β I never really thought of it that way. So as I started to do things like a short morning meditation, because at first when I said meditation, I was like, what? Do you know that my mind goes a million miles an hour like meditation? No. No, it's not gonna happen. But really what that is is just
Challaine (16:37)
It's like, you want me to meditate for 30 seconds? There's no way. Yeah.
Katie J (16:47)
re-centering yourself. And for me, I used to do it in the mornings before work, but now mine happens before bed. And I just let myself kind of go into that, into sleep. β
Challaine (16:59)
decompress the day, like meditate
that off. And you were just resting for a whole night. Sure, it may work for a practice for some people first thing in the morning, but like for me, it would make sense to, okay, the day is done. Now I can like, I can chill, right? And kind of ground myself and center myself.
Katie J (17:20)
So, some very exciting things have been happening since the divorce. I co-authored a book with other
Challaine (17:30)
β do you have a copy?
Do you have a copy around you?
Katie J (17:34)
As a matter of fact, but I think it might go, I actually do. And that was not planned at all, but it's really, and it's gonna be, it's gonna be backwards because of my screen. β start up, start over, just start. And this is different women's stories in entrepreneurship. And how many of us can use that in our life?
Challaine (17:36)
As a matter of fact, let's it. It wasn't.
No, it's perfect. It's perfect.
I love that.
Totally, not just for business.
Katie J (18:04)
through different things, right?
The key is you have to start somewhere. One of my mentors was like, is like, and I know you've heard this too. It doesn't matter if it's messy, just start. Just do it. Because sometimes we get so caught up and it has to look a certain way. It has to be a certain thing. And.
If you do that, you're going to stay there forever, right?
Challaine (18:31)
Exactly. Well, that's
me. β this community that I'm that I'm building my best life ever community I'm like I got six members come join me, right? But I mean every community started with one and then two and three But if you and like the imposter syndrome like in the video I posted yesterday Imposter syndrome is real. I'm like, I'm a fraud. Why should people join me? I've been working on my content for my people for my group for
Katie J (18:38)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
right.
Challaine (19:00)
the past two years, right? And like, it's time,
share it with the world and get out of your own heads. Start, just start, right? And if you don't start, you're not gonna start. Like, it's so simple, right? You have to get out your own heads.
Katie J (19:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well,
and I think for me, this, just this last week, I was having some, I was kind of questioning myself, like, am I in the right, going the right direction? Am I supposed to do this or am I supposed to do that? And questioning that. And this is what happened. It was through my alarm.
rings at three o'clock in the morning. And it was Thursday, no, Tuesday morning. And I was like, I do not want to do this. And I thought I can sleep 10 more minutes and I'll be fine. And then I had this thing, do not go back to sleep because you will be late. So I just took myself out of bed and it's like, how many times have so many of us felt like that?
Challaine (19:44)
Okay.
Katie J (20:12)
You just drag yourself out of bed because it's like the Monday morning blues, right? And I went to work that day and in the back of my mind, know, it's playing like, what am I supposed to be doing? And I was sitting at my desk and it was probably even like one o'clock in the afternoon and the phone rings and I pick it up and I'm like, hello? And this lady on the other end, she goes, Katie, I have to move my training.
And mind you, I support flight attendings. So I'm like, okay, why do you have to move your training? And she goes, well, I'm going through a nasty divorce. I don't know if I'm going to be able to get my, you know, modules that I need to do done. And I have this and this court date. We spent the next 20 minutes talking about just different resources and going through that.
and it was just
Challaine (21:15)
You're attracting
this into your life to be that support person. That's, yeah.
Katie J (21:19)
Right?
It's like if you ever needed a sign, there was one.
Challaine (21:23)
Yeah, ring, ring,
ring, yeah, I'm here for you.
Katie J (21:28)
huh. And it's like, okay, you know, because by us not sharing our message, who is out there that needs us and is gonna go a day later in that heartache or that pain? You know, we're going on another bender, right? Or whatever that looks like.
Challaine (21:53)
You never know, and I've said this before, you never know who's watching or listening silently in the background. They may not β share your post, they may not like your post, you may not know who they are, β but β your message is getting across and it's important and it's valuable. Time and time again, I get random messages from complete strangers of thank you so much.
for your voice and the work that you're doing. And I love the title of your book. I woke up one day and changed my fucking mind. And that's kind of like an in, right? Like it's kind of a funny title, whatever. But
Katie J (22:30)
Yeah.
Challaine (22:30)
I'm like, wow. I just like, it's really validating to know that the pain and the shit that I have gone through is serving a purpose now. It's serving me a new purpose as a mother. I get to start over, right? Without the booze.
Katie J (22:41)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (22:49)
And β like getting sober is becoming really trendy and the more people who talk about it, the more of an impact we're going to have, right? So it's so important to keep sharing and keep telling your truth and post the videos even if you only get one like or no likes because someone is watching and someone is listening and someone is paying attention and you could save someone's life, right? β
Katie J (23:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Challaine (23:18)
or their spirit or their soul, right? Like going through a breakup or a divorce is β soul crushing. Like you just feel so lost. I remember β a breakup I went through and β I sent my older children to their fathers and I was, I had the heat off in my house, my...
My room was dark. I had my laptop on my bed. I was under my blankets just having friends reruns playing. Hours and hours and hours. All
Katie J (23:54)
Right.
Challaine (23:54)
I wanted to do was text my ex and talk to him, but he's like, fuck you. I'm going skiing or snowboarding with my son. was out in the mountains. couldn't, like, I couldn't talk to him. He had no service. And I was just like dying on the inside. It's so isolating to go through. β
to go through a breakup? What would be your, I don't know, three, five, whatever, one, best tips for, okay, we're doing this, the divorce is happening, how, like what are the steps to recovery, I guess, or how do you find yourself? Like what, how do we do this? How do we navigate this?
Katie J (24:15)
Okay.
Well, I think there's kind of three steps to this and the first one is going to be that re...
For some people it's going to be the discovery process for themselves. Other people it's going to be the rediscovery process because I remember...
Being alone going, don't even know what I like to do or what really lights my fire or brings me joy, right? And I started the awareness of what are the things that I liked to do. And I started trying things that maybe, and this is a funny one to me because...
I had to take baths as a child, so as an adult I have never really liked baths until the last few months.
Challaine (25:29)
Okay.
Okay.
Katie J (25:33)
for the last couple of years, you know? Because that brings me a sense of peace. Or being at the playground with my daughter swinging on those swings.
Challaine (25:35)
Yeah.
Katie J (25:49)
And like, oh, I do like doing this stuff, you know, because we lose so much of who we are through relationships, whether it's family, a partner, work, your friendships. Yeah, that's a, that's a whole different podcast, right?
Challaine (26:06)
friendships.
Me, yeah.
Katie J (26:15)
So then the second pillar of that, and this is something that we talked about earlier, is that boundary side. Okay, I'm discovering who I am and now it's time to figure out how I want others to treat me. Prime example of this, I have been in a leadership role for probably 16 of my 18 years with
this airline and I was always for a very long time that go-to person. I would answer my emails when I wasn't at work. I would, β you know, be the one that did the overtime or whatever was needed. Like I was the go-to. And now, especially being in a co-parenting situation and building this amazing life.
I'm like.
And somebody was like, if someone or something is not going to respect you the way that you respect them, it might be time to be done.
Challaine (27:32)
Key word, you just said it, no. No, and it sounds so cliche and β no is a complete sentence. Yeah, no.
Katie J (27:42)
So those boundaries are huge because and sometimes I tell this to my co-workers and they're like β okay but you if you were gone tomorrow you would be replaced okay so take that time it's your time for you
You don't have to carry the weight of a whole company on you when you're not there. You know? It's just... And then the third part would really be figuring out what your future looks like. And...
Challaine (28:16)
Yeah.
game plan and like some new goals. Yeah, I'm with it. That's exciting.
Katie J (28:33)
Mm-hmm.
β I laugh at myself right now because I got unexpected mommy night off last night and it was like literally 20 minutes before we got off work and I told my coworkers, I'm like, let's go have tacos or you know, a drink or you know, and we went and celebrated a birthday, but it was very impromptu because earlier in the week I had said, I think I just need a mom break.
Challaine (28:46)
Really.
think you're a powerful manifesto. You like, yeah.
Katie J (29:09)
And I'm telling you guys!
Yep.
And this goes back to that not trusting yourself. Because let me tell you this things that I can say and this is one of the funnest things that I've started in like the last three weeks with my daughter. β Anytime we get a good parking spot like up close or whatever I tell her I said look at this it's a VIP parking. We are totally VIP.
And so then the other day when I was at work and I talked to her later, said, guess what? I got a VIP parking. And so it's training her to recognize those things too. You know, because
Challaine (29:51)
Yeah, I'm gonna
use that VIP.
Katie J (29:54)
Yeah. And
you can use that in so many different ways, right? So another thing into that building that future is I love to do I am statements. And at first when I started this, was like, what?
Challaine (30:14)
and affirming that like I am and really believing it knowing.
Katie J (30:17)
Yeah.
So that's a little part of my morning routine. Usually when I'm on the shuttle if I'm going to work I'm trying to write some of that stuff but I am strong. I am kind. I am loving. Now you want to get real wild here? Get your children involved. Ask them. And at the time I think my daughter was six or seven and I said
Challaine (30:36)
Let's do it.
Okay.
Katie J (30:46)
What do you think? What would you add here about me?
And I have a very sweet, kind, big-hearted daughter. I don't know why I didn't think this was probably gonna be a tearjerker moment. But she says, Mom, I am bold and I am beautiful. And I was just like...
Challaine (31:11)
Was she saying that about you or about herself? β
Katie J (31:14)
know about me.
But she also says those things about herself. And I just love it because you know, as a mom, we have such a different opportunity with our kids to raise them and give them things that we didn't You know, she yes, she has this confidence that is I'm most like, you know, that she's going to be able to do whatever she wants.
Challaine (31:22)
Woo.
That's the goal.
That's the law.
Katie J (31:43)
It's not going to be dictated by what somebody tells her she needs to do.
Challaine (31:47)
And you would have had no idea unless you just asked a question, a simple question. And that opened up like a whole portal into your daughter that you didn't really know existed maybe. That this is the way she thought about her mom.
Katie J (31:59)
Yeah.
yeah. Because then she also tells me about my wrinkles sometimes too so.
Challaine (32:02)
That's beautiful.
I
I know. That's my 14 year old. My four year old daughter isn't quite there yet. But we're doing the neck creams now. We're into neck creams. I don't know if you can talk on this, but in the codependency in a relationship, you've divorced, you've broken up, and there's like, because I know someone who's going through this. They are never married, but we're going say divorced.
Katie J (32:13)
Yeah, it's like
.
Challaine (32:36)
share a child together and there is this trauma bond that they are still like the fighting back and forth and she is struggling so hard she knows all of β the negative things about this person and she's doing therapy and like psychologists but they still up end up like hanging out together and
on drop-off, she may stay there for an hour or so and like they just can't break, they're not going to get back together but it's like they kind of still are together, right? So and he's to blame, she's to blame, they're both equally to blame but what if you are the divorced woman, a separated woman and you're ready to...
Katie J (33:09)
Okay.
Challaine (33:29)
kind of carry on with your life, like your point three, you're looking at these big goals and these big
visions and your ex is just lingering and like won't like cut the cord. You know what I mean? Because that can keep drawing you in. That was your person, that was your best friend, that's a brother of your child, right? β What price would you give β this friend of mine or another woman who's going through something similar? How do we cut the cord?
Katie J (33:39)
Totally.
Well... You can! You can! And honestly, I have done and somebody told me because, you know, your friends are only gonna be supportive to a certain point. Or your good friends and then they're gonna give you the swift kick in the pants that you need, right? And say, okay, I literally went...
Challaine (34:00)
Can we cut the cord Katie? Okay, okay.
Katie J (34:26)
through a cord cutting ceremony. I looked it up on YouTube because somebody said, you need to do this. yeah, β yeah, to like, because similar things, you know, you are so intertwined that it's like, how do I move on? And you know,
Challaine (34:34)
Okay.
you went through this. Okay!
Katie J (34:55)
that entails you can do it a couple of different ways because sometimes you need to write it out. I've done a couple of different things. I've wrote everything out and you know being ready to move on. I've... I don't suggest this part lighting it on fire in your apartment balcony but... but I did that because it was freeing and it's the same thing with the cord cutting ceremony.
Challaine (35:14)
Thank
Katie J (35:25)
is it is that visual, mental, and physical letting go. And once you do that you have to start looking at things differently. Okay? So if drop-off is a point that is an issue and you're like, end up here an hour but I don't, you know, I still find myself sometimes it's
Still a little weird. But if there is something that causes this, like we do drop off at the garage.
We don't make it this place that is comfortable to just hang out.
I don't think that was intentional in the beginning. It was out of convenience. But changing our approach to those drop-offs and pickups was like setting yourself up for success. If you know you're going to end up there but you don't want to be there, don't put yourself in a place where you're, you feel like obligated to be there.
Challaine (36:33)
This just popped
into my mind. Like when she is dropping the child off, instead of her taking the child out, going up to the door, like going into the apartment and then like through the vestibule and then the other set of doors, he comes out, grabs her from the car, see you later. Yeah.
Katie J (36:45)
Yeah. No.
Yeah,
ours organically worked like that just because in the beginning, a lot of our times he was dropping her off before work and then I was taking her straight to childcare so that I could go to work. So the timeframe wasn't in there, but you have to be intentional about distancing yourself and have that person that if
God bless the friend that I have that is that friend everybody should have. She knows both of us. She's not afraid to call either one of us on our nonsense. And she is like, you cannot continue to do this this way. He is continuing to have control.
And there were times where it was like, I call it the, you know, the circle of craziness, you know, when your conversation is just going circular and you can't get out of it. I have literally said, this is a circular conversation. I'm done.
Challaine (38:07)
I say that to John, to my partner. Well, he's a conversationalist. He wants to talk until it is resumed and it's done. And that is not me. I need the space, the time, I need to calm down, whatever. And then I'll be like, John, we're literally just going in circles now. I have to end the conversation because we're not getting anywhere. And then if you can't do the conversation, you both end up getting heated, right? In the moment, yeah.
Katie J (38:14)
Done.
And the other one is phone calls. Okay? You don't... You're not obligated to take every single phone call. Every time he calls. Okay? We kind of have an agreement that if you need something... Text. But I found myself earlier yesterday. I...
Got a phone call from him. I was having a really busy day. Didn't answer it, but I thought old me would have been like, β my gosh, I need to pick this up. Is the world burning down? What's going on?
Challaine (39:22)
Yeah, like, sense of urgency. Yeah,
yeah.
Katie J (39:27)
No, I was like, you know what? If he needs something, he will either call back or he'll text the question, you know.
Challaine (39:37)
And if it's a real emergency, call 911. you know what I mean? Call 911 before you call me if the child is joking or like whatever, right? Like deal with the emergency.
Katie J (39:41)
Yeah.
those are just different little things and you do those that's where you start to protect yourself and your own heart because the longer you continue to allow yourself to be in that you don't create any distance so it's not like because you're tied together with a child you can't just be like
Challaine (40:10)
And like maybe, β
like I just, I've got this one friend in mind and β maybe I can offer up to her that, look, he's not going anywhere. You guys do share a child together. Like β my ex, the father of my two older children. He's still in my life in some way, shape or form, but the chaos is done. Like he's had a new partner for...
Katie J (40:32)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (40:37)
Excellent, 10 years and like I've been with John for eight years, right? But he's like, we still text occasionally about the older ones and I guess maybe I have solace in knowing that I know he's okay. I know he's happy. He was a huge part of my life for seven years, right? And I mean, ultimately when you leave someone, you want the best for them. They were a part of your life. You love them. They loved you back.
Katie J (40:54)
Yeah.
Challaine (41:06)
and to know that he's okay and he's doing good by my children, I couldn't ask for anything more in an ex, right? And for my children, for him and I to have both grown, we haven't always been this way, Katie, I'm telling you, like,
Katie J (41:14)
Yeah.
Challaine (41:23)
there was courts and yelling and screaming and exes and like our current partners involved on the phone, the nasty texts, but... β
Katie J (41:26)
Yes.
Challaine (41:32)
Yeah, just to have solace in knowing that we finally got to this place. It takes time, but it takes effort. Like it doesn't just happen, right? You have to like set those boundaries and realize what is acceptable. And if you don't, I'm thinking of this girlfriend, if she doesn't set the boundaries, for example, I'm not going to answer your call every single time you call, he's just going to keep doing it. And she's just going to keep getting aggravated.
Katie J (41:44)
Yeah.
Challaine (42:02)
and β
putting that expectation on herself to answer the damn call, right? When realistically she needs to put that boundary so he knows what that boundary is.
Katie J (42:08)
Yeah.
I used to call my, I don't know where this, this came from this conversation. I used to call him every morning on my way to work, even after like we were separated for a long time. And now I'm like, I could have been doing so many other things with that time. Like, ugh. But that.
Challaine (42:31)
Could have been the speech of a podcast.
Katie J (42:40)
The self trust, it's not easy. The boundaries. And I think one of the things that was really hard for me in this was the fact that I am not the same person you were married to four years ago. I have grown, I have learned, I have a lot of things. And...
I would get so upset because for one, like he doesn't know me anymore. Not like he thinks he knows me. And I would get so sad and want him to just see all the work that I've done and everything moving forward. And it's like, you know what? That's a him problem. You cannot take that on.
So that's what I would, yeah. You know, and there's a lot of things when you realize you, even with your kids, right? You realize like, I'm always like now, I don't, I have, I don't want to say how much patience I have because I don't want it to be tested. But I, I, I do.
Challaine (43:38)
And look, that's a gym problem. Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie J (44:05)
fairly well in the patients department with my daughter because I've changed the way that I look at Like when she's upset or when she's mad and I'm like, what is going on? And I am very fortunate because for her being eight, she can articulate and really explain usually most of the time. And some of the time she gets mad or she'll say she gets angry and she goes, she'll turn on a look at me and she goes,
You know, but I'm not really mad. It's just because I'm sad.
and how many, right? But how many times?
Challaine (44:44)
to differentiate those two. That's powerful. Yeah.
Katie J (44:51)
I learned so much being an adult from my child, you know, because how many times does anger mask as hurt or sadness?
Challaine (44:54)
You
Katie J (45:05)
It's a little hot.
Challaine (45:06)
Yeah, yeah, we can lash out in that anger and frustration when really it's so much deeper.
Katie J (45:18)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (45:20)
and going back to the shame that we first started talking about, it's like there's people hold shame for feeling sad or for having emotions and feeling not okay.
Katie J (45:35)
Yeah, I find myself. It is, yeah, right? But when you.
Challaine (45:36)
It's okay to not be okay. But you can't
stay there. That's the ticket. Like you can't, right? Like it's okay to not be okay, blah, blah. But you like sit down, have your pity party. Don't be okay for a little bit. But β like your book, β start something new. Like get up off your sorry little self and start. Yeah. It's to not be okay for little bit.
Katie J (45:45)
Ding ding
Yeah. β
So with that, you know, the emotions and everything, give yourself some grace.
Challaine (46:18)
that's hard.
Katie J (46:19)
It is because we don't live, we don't live in a society that allows you to give grace not only to yourself, but to others. It's sad because it feels like you're breaking a societal norm if you give other people grace.
Challaine (46:40)
But you know what, with that said, I'm gonna challenge that a little bit because I feel like there is a shift happening, right? And we're starting to β open up and recognize and like just through conversation like this and reels on social media and podcasts of β allowing that grace to come in and to happen and
Katie J (46:47)
Yeah.
Challaine (47:08)
and to recognize, I just went through this the past couple weeks, right? I'm like, I this business to run, I got this podcast and blah, blah, blah, And I have to do this, I have to do that and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I can't,
Katie J (47:13)
Right.
Challaine (47:22)
I can't. And Shalane, stop beating yourself up over it. And the people that you're supposed to do the podcast with, i.e. can't appreciate or like understand or be compassionate of your situation, then Katie wasn't meant to be on the show.
Katie J (47:27)
Mm hmm. β
Challaine (47:38)
okay. Right? So yeah, think we're, and I think, you know, I think it also comes with age as well, like we're both 40 and we have like this experience that
Katie J (47:51)
Yeah. I'm
knocking on 50s door and it feels so weird to me.
Challaine (47:58)
Oh, I thought you were 40. Oh, jeez. Hey, you look 40 or 36 or, oh yeah, okay, cool.
Katie J (48:00)
No, no, I am. Yeah. I will
be I will be 47 in October and I just but I totally agree with the timing of that because it seems like there's when you hit that certain point, it's like I say I'm a reforming people pleaser because I couldn't tell people. No. Do you know how much peace I have taken back?
Challaine (48:25)
Totally! Because no is a complete sentence.
Katie J (48:27)
Why?
Yeah, by not feeling like I have to be everything to everyone at all times.
Challaine (48:32)
You can't
you can't how did these how did this expectation on ourselves become such a like a footprint on us? You know like it's such an unrealistic expectation to be all to everybody all the time That's what communities are for that's what like family is for and that's like like even your own children, right?
Katie J (48:48)
Yeah.
Okay.
Challaine (48:55)
β to help out around the house. I had my two-year-old switch his dad's laundry from the washer to the dryer so I could go to the bathroom. You know what I mean?
Katie J (49:04)
Yeah, they made
it fun, right? They thought that was fun.
Challaine (49:07)
Exactly,
exactly. So yeah, we have to drop the expectations. You, before we started, or at the beginning of the, no, before we started recording, β you had mentioned that you have something coming up in the next couple weeks. Are you open to share that now?
Katie J (49:09)
Yeah.
Yes, because I am adding people to the waitlist. It is going to be a mini confidence rebuilding course for post divorce. For women who are really in this place, like, okay, I've got the divorce done, but I'm kind of at this crossroads of like, now what? How do I start taking care of myself?
How do I start enforcing those boundaries so I do have time to create the life that I want to live? And it's gonna be August 18th, 19th, and 20th. And it is going to be virtual. I am hoping to move into live events in the next six to eight months because I love...
Challaine (50:17)
It'll happen.
Katie J (50:21)
to but I also love virtual connection too but I love in person as well and sometimes people will show up in person that wouldn't show up virtually and vice versa so β if you're interested if one of the listeners is interested or they know somebody who would be interested in something like that β they can reach huh
Challaine (50:35)
Mm-hmm.
Is there a fee for this?
there a fee for this?
Katie J (50:50)
No, this is a free, yes, this is a free three day mini course so that it can give you that hope that you can move forward. And even though your life is not turning out like you thought it was going to, it can be better.
Challaine (51:10)
Hey,
and like, oh, I love that. Even though it's not what you think it should have been or what you wanted it to be, it can be better. Like, wouldn't we all just love a little better? You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't have to be the rainbows and butterflies and like trips around the world and all these magical things, but just better. I love that.
Katie J (51:18)
Right.
Right?
Well, because
if you think about that...
Our better is different amongst us all and what we want and how we move forward.
Challaine (51:52)
I am going to β share this. I'm gonna make sure that the link is attached to this episode for sign up for this event, if you will share that with me. And β I'm also going to share this with my girlfriend that I've been chatting about with you today. I think. β
Katie J (52:04)
Okay.
Okay.
Challaine (52:14)
She needs to connect with you. So that's what I love about this show. Like you may like I'm not in divorce. Do I need your services? No, but I do know people right? Definitely benefit because we're all somewhere different and and that's okay. So it's all about connection community one conversation, right and I'm like I've got this friend. I'm like, okay, you need Katie. It's time like Katie
Katie J (52:22)
Right?
Yeah.
β Yep.
Challaine (52:40)
Okay, before we log off, do you have a famous quote or saying that you have come up with or that you know about that has stuck with you, resonates with you? β I've said this many times on the podcast, every journey begins with a single step. Do you have something that you can share or a last tidbit of info?
Katie J (53:03)
Well, it's just that. You have to take that first step. And how can you go anywhere if you don't take that first step? It's just like when you learned to walk. You had to start with one step.
before you could run. Now that you've got the divorce out of the way, it's your turn to run.
Challaine (53:27)
It's so true. It's so simple. Well, I mean, in hindsight, it's simple. Talking about it is simple, but I mean, the reality is no one's going to do it for you. No. So it's okay not to be okay, but only for a little bit. And then go and take that first step. Katie, thank you so much for.
Katie J (53:32)
yeah. Yep.
Nope.
Challaine (53:51)
being on the show today. And I'm looking forward to connecting my friend with you and we're going to share your event, your live virtual event. It's a live virtual event. People can come in, ask questions. Perfect. We'll share that in the show notes for this episode. And it is showing me that your recording has stopped.
Katie J (54:00)
Yes.
Katie J (54:08)
Thanks for watching.
β probably
because I was getting a phone call, it's almost drop off time. That's why.
Challaine (54:19)
Okay, no, it's lovely. We'll
share everything in the show notes and β Perfection doesn't happen phone calls come in when you're recording a podcast. It's all good. So β Where can people get a hold of you reach you you are the founder of what?
Katie J (54:23)
Yes.
Yeah.
Butterfly Tribe Blueprint. The Butterfly for the transition that you go through after divorce. That tribe is surrounding yourself with people who support you. And the Blueprint is giving you those next steps in how to move forward.
Challaine (54:43)
anywhere.
Genius, genius. And can I just point out, we look like Christmas, so we should maybe air this one. There you go, there you go. Katie, thank you so much for being a part of the show today. And thank you to our listeners. Please like, share, follow, do all the things. And as always, hope you have the best day ever.
Katie J (55:00)
we do. Christmas in July. The last day of July. We're Christmas in July. Yep.
Yes.